采写：Rom Landau
回答：克里希那穆提
翻译：凡夫
转自：公众号“真相是无路之地克里希那穆提”
我们再次见面时，大家都不再假装要去散步，而是直接走向我们山上的那个松树下的胜地。这是一个理想的谈话场所，一整天也没有一个人路过，而且风景迷人。能听到的只有海浪冲击悬崖的声音。我不再为这个我觉得有责任询问Krishnamurti的话题而感到害怕，我知道我可以随意谈论任何事情。我感觉现在是我可以问他性的问题的时候了。
“英国的生活教给我的对性的重要性的认识，远远不如我在欧洲大陆生活时所不得不相信的那种程度。我曾学会了这样地对待性，就像我们对待穷亲戚们，或者像维多利亚社会对待女人的腿那样：从来不提到他们，就像他们不存在一样。这种态度可以给你一种临时的解决，而且在生活的常规情况下，也许是有实用价值的，但是它没有解决根本的问题。它没有给我们带来幸福，也没有释放性背后的那些力量，它们在适当地与真实地表达出来时，应当是去创造的。
“在性问题上的虚伪，也许对于群体生活中，某些必然是表层的方面，是恰当的。但是虚伪永远不过只是逃避的手段，逃避现实的真面目。虚伪把性推到千百个帘子的后面，每个帘子只能把它遮掩一小会，而对解决背后的根本问题没有任何帮助。对于在完美的爱中找到性的满足的少数人来说，性问题是不存在的，但是这样的人很少。多数人没有能力以满意的方式控制他们的性冲动。听一下随便那个国家治安法庭的一个个案件，让你的医生朋友们告诉你全部的真相，认真地和教育者们谈谈，你自己就会发现这个可悲的真相。”
我问Krishnamurti是否认为，那些性冲动很强的人屈服于自己的冲动是错误的。“没有什么是错误的，如果它来真的来自于你的内心”，他回答道。“跟随你内心的渴望，如果它不是人为的刺激造成的，而是你内心燃烧的东西，那么你的生活中就不会有性的问题。只有当我们内心里真实的东西，被理智上的考虑所反对的时候，问题才会产生。”
“但是肯定不仅仅是理智上的考虑，才导致人们认为满足强烈的性渴望是错误的，即便它已经强到无法压抑。”
“压抑永远解决不了问题，自律也不是办法。那只是用一个问题代替了另一个问题。”
“但是你怎么能指望那些成千上万的人们，他们已经变成了性的奴隶，来解决他们的性冲动，与他们内心让自己不要屈服的那种评判感，这两者之间的冲突呢。在英国你会看到少一些公开被性奴役的人，但是看看美国，以及欧洲大陆多数国家，还有很多东方国家，对于他们来说，性的需要是个严重的问题。”
我在Krishnamurti脸上注意到一丝轻微的不耐烦的表情。“对我来说这个问题不存在”，他说：“归根到底，性是爱的一种表现形式，不是吗？我触摸一个我喜欢的人的手，就能从中得到其他人从性交中可能得到的快乐。”
“但是那些普通人怎么办？他们还没有达到你的成熟境界，或者不管怎么叫它。”
“首先，人们应该把性放在它适当的位置上来看待。在今天，并不是作为一种强烈内在渴望的性冲动，而更多的是性的思想和形象，在支配着多数的人们。我们整个的现代生活都充斥着这些。看看你的周围。你无法打开一张报纸，乘坐地铁或者在街上行走，而不遇到这些广告与招牌，他们诉求于你的性本能，目的是为一双袜子，一种新的牙膏或者某个牌子的香烟唱赞歌。我无法想象这么多半裸的女孩子们充满了报纸与杂志，这是以前从来没有过的。
“在每个商店，电影院和咖啡馆里，电梯服务员，餐厅服务员，女售货员们，都被化装成荡妇一样，用来挑逗你的性本能。她们自己对此并不知觉，但是她们的短裙，她们暴露的双腿，被描画的脸面，女性化的头饰，让她们不断对客户施展的生理诉求，这些都意在刺激你的性本能。哎，这是兽性，完全是兽性。性已经被降低为缺乏想象力的推销的奴仆。有人要出版一本新的杂志了。他不去绞尽脑汁想出一个有意思和吸引人的封面，他所作一切就是放上一张女孩的彩照，半开着双唇，诱惑地挡住自己的乳房，看上去完全像一个妓女。你随时随地受着攻击，使你已经搞不清这是你自己的性冲动，还是你周围的生活人为造成的性的氛围。这种对我们性本能的低俗的，强烈的诉求，是我们的文明最兽性的标志之一。把这个拿掉，多数所谓的性冲动也就没有了。”
“我不是一个道德家”，Krishnamurti停顿一会后说道。“我没有任何反对性的地方，我反对的是性压抑，性虚伪，甚至被称为性自律的东西，那只是某种形式的性虚伪。但是我不希望性被变得廉价，被引入到所有那些它所不属于的生活领域。”
“尽管如此，Krishnaji，你的没有兽性的性诱惑的世界只存在于乌托邦里。我们在说的是这个世界，它现在的状态，它在未来相当时间里，远在你我都死去之后，恐怕将处于的状态。”
“也许会是这样，但是我不关心这个。我不是个医生，我没法开出改良的药方，我只说根本的精神真理。如果你在寻求药方与改良方法，你得找心理学家。我只能再一次说，如果你能够这样重新调整自己，让爱能够成为一种无所不在的感觉，在其中，性将成为真正友爱的一种表现，那么所有这些可悲的性问题都将不存在了。”
他向上看了一会，然后深深地叹了一口气。“唉，我多么希望你们能够看到，这些问题其实并不存在，是你们自己创造了这些问题，而只有你们自己能够解决它们。我没法帮你做，没有人能够帮你做，如果他是真诚并忠实于真理的话。我只能谈论精神真理，而不是精神欺骗。”他的声音似乎充满了清醒，他停下来躺在了地上。
我开始理解当基督谈到他对所有人没有分别的爱时，他所指的应该是什么。确实，那种无所不在的爱的感觉（在其中性将变得无足轻重但是又无需被消除），似乎只有这种形式的爱，对一个觉醒与成熟的人才是值得的。尽管如此，我还是在想Krishnamurti本人是否已经达到了那种生命觉知的程度，在其中个人的爱已经让位于普遍的爱，在其中每一个人都将被平等地给与友爱。
“难道你不对爱某些人多于另一些人吗？”我问。“不管怎么说，即使像你这样一个人也不可避免地有感情上的偏好吧。”
当他再次开口时，Krishnamurti的语调非常平静。“为了给你一个满意的回答，我需要先说几句。不然的话，可能你没法按照它的本意来领会它。我想让你知道的是，这些谈话对于我的重要性，并不亚于对你可能具有的重要性。我不仅仅是为了满足一个正好在写我的作者的好奇心，或者是帮助你个人。我的谈话主要是为我自己澄清几件事情。我认为这是对话的巨大价值之一。请不要认为我会说出任何我不全心相信的东西。我没有试图说服你、教导你、给你留下印象。即使你是我最老的朋友或者是我兄弟，我也会同样这么说。我说这些是为了让你把我的话当成简单的观点陈述，而不是一种试图说服你，让你皈依的企图。你刚才问我关于个人的爱，我的回答是我已经不知道它了。个人的爱对我是不存在的。爱对我来说是一种不变的内在状态。我现在和你在一起，和我的兄弟在一起，或者和一个完全陌生的人在一起，对我都是一样的。我对你们所有人和每个人都有同样的友爱的感觉。人们有时候认为我是肤浅和冷淡的，认为我的爱是消极的，而且没有强到足以只给予一个人。但实际的状态不是冷漠，而是一种随时都在我心中的爱的感觉，我没有办法不把它给予我所遇到的每一个人。”他停顿了片刻，仿佛在想我是不是相信他，然后说：“最近，我在Besant夫人过世后的行为，让一些人感到震惊。我没有哭，我看上去没有悲伤，而是很平静，我继续着我的日常生活，人们就说我完全没有任何人的感情。我怎么能向他们解释清楚，因为我的爱是给予所有人的，它不可能因为一个人的离去而受影响，即便这个人是Besant夫人。当爱已成为你整个生命的基础时，悲痛不可能再拥有你。”
“在你的生活中，一定会有一些你没有什么感觉，或者是你不喜欢的人吧？”
Krishnamurti微笑着说：“没有任何我不喜欢的人。你难道不明白，并不是我在把我的爱给予一个人，在这里加强一点，那里减弱一点？无论我怎么做，爱就在那里，如同我的肤色，我的嗓音一样。所以它一定总是在那里，即使我是在一群我不认识，或者是我不“应该”在意的人们中间。有时候，我不得处在一群我不认识的吵闹的人群中，可能是某个会议，某个讲座或者也许是某个车站，那里充满噪音，烟雾，香烟的气味，以及所有那些其它生理上影响我的东西。即使在那种场合下，我对每个人的爱的感觉，还是如同现在这个天空之下，在这个可爱的地方。当我告诉人们痛苦与悲伤甚至死亡都不会影响我时，人们认为我是自以为是的，或者是虚伪的。这不是自以为是。是爱使得我能够这样，而爱对我是如此的自然，以至于人们能够质疑它这一点，总是让我感到惊讶。而且我不仅仅是对人类感到这种一体。我对树木，海洋，以及整个周围的世界都有这种感觉。物质的区分不再存在。我不是在说一个诗人的心理想象，我是在说真实的东西。”
Krishnamurti停下来的时候，他的眼睛在闪光。他显示出一种特别的美的品质，如果用语言来描述很容易显得过于感性与虚假，但是在现实生活中却显得如此的真实。这不像是从他身上散发出的某种无形的魅力，而更像是一种难以言状的内在光明，它在以纯粹的美显现出来。我现在感到一种我们有时对大自然有强烈印象时会有的那种感觉。在山顶上，或者在早春柔软的微风中，即将去一个开着水仙花的树叶茂盛的森林时，有时会引发这种质朴的快乐。
下为英文原文:
When we met again we no longer pretended that we were going for a walk but went straight to our pine-shadowed resort on the hill. It was an ideal place for conversation – not a single human being passed it all through the day and the view was exalting. The only noise was that of the sea breaking on the cliffs. I no longer felt intimidated by the subjects on which I had considered it my duty to question Krishnamurti; I knew that I could speak freely about everything; and I felt that the moment had arrived when I could question him about sex.
‘Life in England had taught me to assume that sex was of much smaller importance than I had to believe it to be in the days when I lived on the Continent. I had learned to treat sex in the way one treats poorer relations or in the way Victorian society treated women’s legs: pretending that they do not exist and never mentioning them. Such an attitude may provide a temporary solution, and it is probably of practical value in all the more conventional circumstances of life, but it does not solve the essential problem. It brings no happiness, nor does it release any of those forces that sex, properly and honestly expressed, ought to create. Hypocrisy, or rather make-believe in matters of sex, may be laudable in the face of certain necessarily superficial aspects of the life of a community; but hypocrisy can never be more than merely a means of escape – it shirks the facing of reality. Hypocrisy pushes sex behind hundreds of screens, each one of which can hide it for only a short while, without doing anything to solve the essential underlying problem. Among the few people who find sexual satisfaction in perfect love the sex problem does not exist – but such people are few. The majority are not capable of regulating their sex impulses in a satisfactory way. Listen to the cases in the police courts of any country; ask your medical friends to tell you the whole truth about themselves, speak seriously to educationalists – and you will find out this sad reality for yourself.’
I asked Krishnamurti whether he thought it wrong for people with a very strong sexual impulse to give way to it. ‘Nothing is wrong if it is the result of something that is really within you’, was his answer. ‘Follow your urge, if it is not created by artificial stimuli but is burning within you – and there will be no sex problem in your life. A problem only arises when something within us that is real is opposed by intellectual considerations.’
‘But surely it is not only intellectual considerations that cause many people to believe the satisfaction of a strong sex urge to be wrong, even if it is too strong to be suppressed.’
‘Suppression can never solve a problem. Nor can self-discipline do it. That is only substituting one problem for another.’
‘But how do you expect millions of people, who have become slaves of sex, to solve the friction between their urge and that judicial sense which tries to prevent them from giving way? In England you will find fewer people openly ruled by sex, but consider America; consider most of the countries of the continent of Europe; consider many of the Eastern nations – for them their sex needs are a grave problem.’
I noticed an expression of slight impatience on Krishnamurti’s face. ‘For me this problem does not exist’, he said; ‘after all, sex is an expression of love, isn’t it? I personally derive as much joy from touching the hand of a person I am fond of as another might get from sexual intercourse.’
‘But what about the ordinary person who has not attained to your state of maturity, or whatever it should be called?’
‘To begin with, people ought to see sex in its proper proportions. It is not sex as a vital inner urge that dominates most people nowadays so much as the images and thoughts of sex. Our whole modern life is propitious to them. Look around you. You can hardly open a newspaper, travel by the underground or walk along a street without coming across advertisements and posters that appeal to your sex instincts in order to sing the praises of a pair of stockings, a new toothpaste or a particular brand of cigarette. I cannot imagine that so many semi-naked girls have ever before walked through the pages of newspapers and magazines. In every shop, cinema and café the lift attendants, waitresses and shopgirls are made up to look like harlots so that they may appeal to your sex instincts. They themselves are not aware of this, but their short skirts, their exposed legs, their painted faces, their girlish coiffures, the constant physical appeal which they are made to exercise the over the customer do nothing but stimulate your sex instincts. Oh, it is beastly, simply beastly! Sex has been degraded to become the servant of unimaginative salesmanship. Someone will start a new magazine and, instead of racking his brains for an interesting and alluring title-page, all he does is to publish a coloured picture of a girl with half-opened lips, suggestively hiding her breasts and looking altogether like a whore. You are being constantly attacked, and you no longer know whether it is your own sex urge or the sex vibration produced artificially by life around you. This degrading, emphatic appeal to our sex instinct is one of the most beastly signs of our civilization. Take it away, and most of the so-called sex urge is gone.’
‘I am not a moralist’, Krishnamurti added after a pause; ‘I have nothing against sex, and I am against sex suppression, sex hypocrisy and even what is called sexual self-discipline, which is only a specific form of hypocrisy. But I don’t want to sex to be cheapened, to be introduced into all those forms of life where it does not belong.’
‘Nevertheless, Krishnaji, your world without its beastly sex appeal will found only in Utopia. We are dealing with the world as it actually is, and as it will probably be in days to come, long after you and I are gone.’
‘That may be so, but it does not concern me. I am not a doctor; I cannot prescribe half-remedies; I deal simply with fundamental spiritual truth. If you are in search of remedies and half-methods you must go to a psychologist. I can only repeat that if you readjust yourself in such a way as to allow love to become an omnipresent feeling in which sex will be an expression of genuine affection, all the wretched sex problems will cease to exist.’
He looked up for a few seconds and then gave a deep sigh. ‘Oh, if you people could only see that these problems don’t exist in reality, and that it is only yourselves who create them, and that it is yourselves who must solve them! I cannot do it for you – nobody can if he is genuine and faithful to truth. I can only deal with spiritual truth and not with spiritual quackery.’ His voice seemed full of disillusion and he stopped and lay back on the ground.
I began to understand what Christ must have meant when He spoke of His love without distinction for every human being, and of all men being brothers. Indeed, the omnipresent feeling of love (in which sex would become meaningless without being eliminated) seemed the only form of love worthy of a conscious and mature human being. Nevertheless I wondered whether Krishnamurti himself had reached that stage of life-awareness in which personal love had given place to universal love, in which every human being would be approached with equal affection.
‘Don’t you love some people more than others?’ I asked. ‘After all, even a person like yourself is bound to have emotional preferences.’
Krishnamurti’s voice was very quiet when he began to speak again. ‘I must first say something before I can give you a satisfactory reply to your question. Otherwise you may not be able to accept it in the spirit in which it is offered. I want you to know that these talks are quite as important to me as they can possibly be to you. I don’t speak to you merely to satisfy the curiosity of an author who happens to be writing about me, or to help you personally. I talk mainly to clarify a number of things for myself. This I consider one of the great values of conversation. You must not think therefore that I ever say anything unless I believe it with my whole heart. I am not trying to impress, to convince or teach you. Even if you were my oldest friend or my brother I should speak in just the same way. I am saying all this because I want you to accept my words as simple statements of opinion and not as attempts to convert or persuade. You asked me just now about personal love, and my answer is that I no longer know it. Personal love does not exist for me. Love is for me a constant inner state. It does not matter to me whether I am now with you, with my brother or with an utter stranger – I have the same feeling of affection for all and each of you. People sometimes think that I am superficial and cold, that my love is negative and not strong enough to be directed to one person only. But it is not indifference, it is merely a feeling of love that is constantly within me and that I simply cannot help giving to everyone I come into touch with.’ He paused for a second as though wondering whether I believed him, and then said: ‘People were shocked by my recent behavior after Mrs. Besant’s death. I did not cry, I did not seem distressed but was serene; I went on with my ordinary life, and people said that I was devoid of all human feeling. How could I explain to them that, as my love went to everyone, it could not be affected by the departure of one individual, even if this was Mrs. Besant. Grief can no longer take possession of you when love has become the basis of your entire being.’
‘There must be people in your life who mean nothing to you or whom you even dislike?’
Krishnamurti smiled: ‘There aren’t any people I dislike. Don’t you see that it is not I who directs my love towards on person, strengthening it here, weakening it there? Love is simply there like the colour of my skin, the sound of my voice, no matter what I do. And therefore it is bound to be there even when I am surrounded by people I don’t know or people whom I “should” not care fore. Sometimes I am forced to be in a crowd of noisy people that I don’t know; it may be some meeting or a lecture or perhaps a waiting room in a station, where the atmosphere is full of noise, smoke, the smell of tobacco and all the other things that affect me physically. Even then my feeling of love for everyone is as strong as it is under this sky and on this lovely spot. People think that I am conceited or a hypocrite when I tell them that grief and sorrow and even death do not affect me. It is not conceit. Love that makes me like that is so natural to me that I am always surprised that people can question it. And I feel this unity not only with human beings. I feel it with trees, with the sea, with the whole world around me. Physical differentiations no longer exist. I am not speaking of the mental images of a poet; I am speaking of reality.’
When Krishnamurti stopped his eyes were shining, and there was in him that specific quality of beauty which easily appears sentimental or artificial when described in words, and yet is so convincing when met with in real life. It did not seem magnetism that radiated from him but rather an inner illumination that is hard to define, and that manifests itself as sheer beauty. I now experienced the feeling we sometimes have when confronted by strong impressions of Nature. Reaching the top of a mountain, or the soft breezes of early spring, with the promise of daffodils and leafy woods can produce occasionally such states of unsophisticated contentment.
采访者介绍：
Rom Landau是一位保加利亚作者。他在Krishnamurti解散明星社之前（大概是1928年左右），参加了神通学会组织的以Krishnamurti为中心的篝火活动，并与Krishnamurti有过接触的机会。由于没有钱买火车票，他是从保加利亚徒步走了六个星期，才到达活动地点的。
不久之后，他听说Krishnamurti解散了明星社。
几年之后，大概是1934年，他去美国再一次拜访了Krishnamurti。这时他是作为一位作者去的，带有一定的采访性质。他和Krishnamurti在一起生活了几天，问了很多个人性质的问题，包括Krishnamurti个人生活，以及他对生活的观点。
1935年，他出版了一本书：“God is my Adventure，A Book on Modern Mystics, Masters and Teachers”。该书记录了对多位现代宗教人物的访问。
原创专栏 | 镜心录
文艺+哲思+心灵+趣味
这里聚集着许多关注心灵品质的人
生命是一场创意之旅
共享生命之美｜滋养内心的力量
保持独立精神｜对自由一探究竟
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